What Is Wrong With What Is Wrong About Kenpo?

After reading around on the Internet a fair amount, I've come to some conclusions--not necessarily about kenpo as such, but about the endless discussion of What is Wrong With Kenpo. So I thought I'd start a thread, consisting of the objections to American kenpo, and responses to those objections. To get the ball rolling, I'm going to offer two posts, the first of which concerns the way we talk about kenpo...it's all too often pompous and pseudo-scientific, creating complexities in language where none really need to exist. It isn't a prob with complex language as such--it's a problem with treating language as a kind of squid ink, which gets squirted out when a writer can't really explain what the heck they're really talking about. I think that there's a lot hidden behind such language, including: a) commericalism (I'm trying to sell you something, but I don't want to say that, so...here comes the language); b) aggressivity/rivalry (I've come up with some reason that I don't like you, but I don't want to say that, so...); c) patriarchy (my dad is the only dad, but I don't want to say that, so....); d) ignorance (I can't really answer your question or discuss the issue meaningfully, so...); e) illiteracy (my writing sucks, but I don't want to work on it, so...); f) fear of training (getting out on the mat scares me, but I don't want to say that, so...); g) refusal to cope with how long this stuff takes to learn (I don't want to hafta work, and on the Net I don't hafta, so...); h) difficulty coping with the fact of my own vulnerability (no amount of training, gun-carrying, knife art, etc. will guarantee my safety, but I don't want to say that, so....). You get the picture...

Here's the next argument I often see: the System Needs To be Changed, And I'm Just the Guy (or My Instructor Is) To Change It. Now this actually does make some sense--in the first place, Mr. Parker wasn't the, "author," of kenpo, if by "author," you mean some guy who sits down in a room like you think Shakespeare did, and thinks and writes out a book of his thoughts. For one thing, we can't even figure out exactly who taught Parker himself, or what the relationship was between Mr. Chow and Mr. Mitose. So whatever happened, it left us with a kenpo cobbled together out of a lot of different things that a lot of different people came up with at different times, and "it," has evolved considerably--sometimes backward, too, as Ron Chap'el notes. So as a result, lotsa guys seem to think that they're perfectly well qualified to go jacking around with, "the system." You know--32 techs, 24 techs, 16, 12, 8. Let's dump the forms. Let's change the forms. Let's collapse all the forms into One Big Master Form. Stance sets? Nah. More BJJ. More FMA. The techniques don't work; let's fix them. Now beyond all the stuff behind these desires (see the previous post), I think that what's going on is a profound misunderstanding of how authorship actually works. I could say that the way to understand my point is to go read Foucault's essays, "What Is An Author," or maybe Lukacs' stuff in, "The Historical Novel." But rather, here's a rhetorical question: why do martial arts in science fiction movies always look so silly? (Yes, even in, "Eqilibrium," Angie--though a lot of that credibility came from the fact that their gun kata looked suspiciously like kenpo forms, kenpo philosophy, and older manuals of the sword diagrams) I think it's because the writers/movie people MADE THE ARTS UP all on their own in a rush, without the grounding in collaboration and in historical processes that developed around Parker, and made him look like THE author of something that jist growed like Topsy. And I think that a lot of the, "evolution," in kenpo--when it isn't the wholesale plagiarism of something from "outside," kenpo--is just the same sort of thing.

Well, I'm cleaning house and doing odd jobs today, so I'm just gonna keep yakking. Here's the next thing I read a lot: the System Has Holes In It, and We Need To Plug The Holes With Something From Outside. You know--maybe They took it out, maybe We forgot, maybe Kenpo never had it in the first place, but I need to supplement the system with... choose one or press, "d" for choose all, supplement your kenpo with a) FMA, b) BJJ/grappling/shootfighting, c) kinfe arts, d) "combat" gunning. Now my first problem here, curiously enough, is practical--who the hell has the time and energy to really, actually, in truth DO all this stuff at a meaningful level? A second, more theoretical prob is this--yes, it's true that this thing called, "Kenpo," isn't really a thing. So, supplementing it with these other not-things isn't really any big deal (as semi-common, I'm thinking of low-level Derrida...supplements, origins, but never mind)....unless, of course, a) you just dabble a bit and call it enough, b) you think that you will ever fill in all the holes. And a third point--yup, studying this other stuff will probably help. It'll give you a new perspective on what you already knew, which oughta tell you something about what you didn't know about what you already knew. If nothing else, studying an art like judo might really help with the minor technical problem of the too-many obviously obese and out-of-shape kenpo people. Honestly, I've been kinda convinced by many of the arguments I've had thrown at me (and I do mean, "thrown;" check some of the threads that got me thrown off Kenpotalk, and got some of the throwers made moderators) about cross-training--it'd help me. I just have this one teensy little question--how many of the cross-training advocates REALLY know their kenpo onions? I personally know and train/have trained extensively with two who really understood what kenpo was all about over the last ten years plus. I know another four or five with a good deal of knowledge about kenpo with a fair amount of knowledge in other arts....usually, one other, or who have got to a point where they can afford to step out a little. But I just don't believe that most of the folks pushing the cross training have a clue. And here's the fourth point--was kenpo insofar as it is a theoretical framework, or was kenpo not, meant to be a universal martial art, the truth that was behind them all? If it was, is it?

Well, well, well.  Here we go.

1.  Evolution as wholesale plagiarism.  I think I agree.  What I have witnessed people describing as evolution are just things I have learned from other systems.  Verbatim. 

2.  Why can't people change how they teach the system?  Is there something fundamentally wrong with that?  I say no.  People have different needs.  What is the system?  First define that for me. If it is a collection of "things" put together to teach a skill set, then it would seem to me that the only thing that matters is finding effective ways to teach the skill set. 

3.  I think I agree with authorship being a collaboritive effort-if that was your point-but someone's name needs to go on the cover. 

          EGO,  EGO,  EGO, EGO, EGO, EGO, EGO, EGO, EGO, EGO, EGO, EGO.

4.  As far as being qualified?  People make judgements based on their experiences, simple as that.  I wanted to learn how to handle sticks.  My experience has shown me that I can build that skill set better than what my kenpo experience has taught me.  So I pass my experience on to others.  From there, their experience will dictate how and what skill set they develop.  If I have more experience in that area than the person I am teaching, then I am qualified to teach them.  Pretty simple.

5.  You make judgements about training methods based on your goals, just as I do.  Maybe our goals are different, which should make our methods different.  What is wrong with that?  I teach ground work, as well as stick and knife work from other systems, because I have many students with many different goals.  I have found that Kenpo isn't always the best path for people in their attempt to reach their particular goal.  Some people only get Kenpo, because it is in line with their goal.

6.  None of this matters anyway, it's just kicking and punching.

7.  Because, for some people it is lliterally life and death, and it is my job as an instructor to make sure they can develop a skill set to defend their life.  They need that skill set developed as quickly as possible, as in yesterday.  I have no loyalty to any system.  I will use any method that can help develop the skill set needed.  If I find a better, more efficient way, I will use it.  Some people don't have the time or inclination for patience.  Their jobs dictate efficiency in training. 

8.  Your point about Kenpo being cobbled together, is pretty much the point.  I truely believe Kenpo is not as succint as people would like to believe.  Infact isn't everything pretty much cobbled together?  And by everything, I mean EVERYTHING.

9.  Every person I have talked to about Mr. Parker, including his son, has a diffferent take on what his goals and methods were.  If they all have different opinions on things, why can't I?

Good post, made me think a little.

Troy

 

 

 

I can't speak for others (although I usually try), but when I "cross train" what I am really doing it training in concepts and methods.  I find value in various training methods which develop skill.  When this is the goal of cross training time isn't really a factor.  It is not-for me at least- a memorization thingy.

Kenpo as far as blueprint?  A hesitant yes, but just like a blue print, it lacks certain details.

Troy

If a martial art were simply a, "skill set," I'd agree with you completely rather than about 85%. As it is, I'd point out that what you're advocating is a kind of Taylorization--mindless efficiency, based on a set of unexamined presuppositions about cranking out "product," without the slightest regard to human cost--that doesn't fit well with what actually goes on in good martial arts. However, I'm afraid that I didn't explain myself well--my point about, "authorship," in kenpo didn't show that kenpo had no authority; it showed that that authority bderived from a kind of collaboration, and from being at a particular juncture in history, that I do not believe is currently available to martial arts guys. But I'd love to know--with details, please--exactly where these, "holes," in kenpo are, and how (with details, please) you've made the time to fill them. Because one of the main things that is wrong with what is wrong about kenpo is the leck of explanatory details.

Well okay then.

Authorship as collaberation- I agree and disagree, I actually think it is happening again, at this very point in time.  I tend to be one of the few people that actually think there are more people with more martial arts knowledge and skill, at this present moment in the United States, than at any other time in history.  Many people are collaborating with methods and means.

Martial arts as a skill set- What else could it be?  Are there by-products of training for a certain skill set?  I think so, but they are just that, by-products.

Personal experience of filling gaps- 

 Ground work- found a very talented judo player to teach me the ground fundamentals and how to train them.  Taught me the basic positions, how to transition through them, counters to them and a very quick way to drill it with resistance. I like to use it as my warm up.  It is consistent with the strategies and tactics I attempt to execute in a self defense situation if I were unlucky enough to go to the ground. It took 3 hours to learn.  10 mins of drilling as my warm up, has increased my skill level on the ground incredibly.  People say it is in Kenpo.  Well not my experience, unless you want to stretch some of the concepts.  I mean really stretch, and even then I haven't seen anyone teach a great way to drill it that is consistent with my goals.  Hate to put it on the line like this, but honestly I haven't seen anything in Kenpo, anywhere, that matches the first three hours of ground work I learned years ago. People that think they have found things in kenpo to address it are, unfortunatly, ill informed.  Are there similarities?  Yes, but in the same way an orange is similar to an apple.  They are both round and they are both fruit.  Not much extra time spent learning it at all. Extra time training? None.  It replaced my warmup.

Perceptual speed drills, or if you will, position recognition flow- I wanted an effecient way to drill my technniques on a resistant opponent.  The Filipino training I recieved taught me how to do this.  I no longer like working a technique line for MY practice. I get more variables and better training using my method.  Extra time, quite a bit I would say, in the beginning anyway.  But like a lot of things, extra time put in at the beginning has made things better for me now.  Because of this training I got a two for one, actually three, if you break weapons up into stick and knife.  Which leads me to...

Weapons- I work drills with weapons, not forms.  Same results as above.  Instead of time spent working weapons forms, I work weapons on a resistant opp.  Extra time, none.

The training is now seemless, I don't really think of it as separate catagories, they are all parts of a whole.  Although I try to give credit where it is due, I just treat it all as my kenpo training now.

Mix it all up with a heavy dose of empty hand forms practice- only kenpo- and there you have it.

As far as mindless efficiency, I would say it is the exact opposite.  In fact it is mindful efficiency.  I have other interests in my life.  A son, reading, guitar, that bastard thing called work, many things to do.  Precisely because of this, my training is MINDFUL of the fact that it needs to be efficient.  To me it is all about percentages. 

The thing here, to me anyway, is different strokes.  If you have different goals than I do, then maybe you don't think there are holes in the system, because you are attempting to go somewhere different with your training. 

Here is a question I would like you to answer as explicitly as possible.  Have you ever taught a student whose life depended on your lessons?  When things are put into this kind of context, things need to be more concrete.  Certain things have to be addressed explicitly.  An instructor can't say (for example, not saying you do this), "All the answers you will need for ground defense are in the system.  You just have to be patient, and be a good student and eventually they will make themselves apparent to you."  The answer an instructor should respond with is, "Here is what I have learned.  Let's work it and drill it, so I can prove to you it works.  Then you can drill it against others trying to stop you.  Then there will be no question as to what your response should be in that situation, and if after all of this, you still don't like the answer, then maybe we can both find someone who could show us something different, because I understand that your life might depend on this skill, and it is important to me that you can deal with that situation." 

Does this mean I think it is smart to train a million things in order to be a parking lot ninja?  Uhhhhh, no. 

One last thing I tend to relate it to.  Two decades ago there was not a single basketball coach who thought lifting weights was a good idea for basketball players.  It messed with your shot, made you bulky, slowed you down etc..  Well things have changed.  They really just didn't know did they?  Now every single college and pro team has a strength coach on retainer.  Training methods change.  They used to say the same thing about golf.  Have you seen how muscular Tiger Woods is?  Just as they did, I have found a better way to practice for MY INTENDED GOAL.

 

 

"What is wrong with Kenpo?" I don't think anything is wrong with Kenpo.  The question is, "What is wrong with the practitioners of Kenpo?" That is easy.  There are too many keyboard warriors sitting on their butts trying to theorize all day as their physical ability deteriorates.  There are too many Kenpo thinkers and not enough Kenpo doers.   Yours, MM

Maybe I'm just jealous. I've spent a lot of time on the mat in a fairly-good place, worked out with some pretty half-decent martial arts types for a number of years now, and I just don't see that I'm going to be evolving out of kenpo any time soon. So I appreciate what you're saying. And I have no problems with the idea of your cross-training, working with weights, etc., etc.--good for you, in fact, bad for me I suppose, because a lot of this stuff bores me, and so I do not do it. But my question is--I intend to work out and study for the rest of my life; I train for my health; I train to get to a reasonable level of ability in self-defense (but incidentally, I have a rather-broader notion of, "self-defense," than many, one that includes developing self-discipline and a few other similar bells and whistles) my question is, what's YOUR goal, exactly? The real problem I have with your approach--and it's why I mentioned Taylorization--is that your post, again and again, puts its faith in pure efficiency. This runs up against a number of classic questions--the first of which is, if all you're interested in is efficiency, why not just carry a shotgun everywhere? Yes, I know, the damn liberals won't allow it. Seriously, though--if all you care about is efficiency, about becoming able to defend yourself as expeditiously as possible, what's the point in bothering practicing rolling around down there on the ground when guns are available? Then too, do you really think that a three-hour tour through judo is remotely enough? Seems to me that that'll give you what most kenpo folks I know have got already--enough experience to know some basics and be able to avoid freaking out when you hit the ground, which is assuredly a Good Thing, no question about it. And as for the question about who I teach (I realize words gets mooshed together, but one "trains," a dog, one, "teaches," a human being.), well, my cheap answer would be that ALL students' lives depend in some sense upon their learning, whether they know it or not. But then, this would also be true of English classes.

Miller:

"What is wrong with Kenpo?" I don't think anything is wrong with Kenpo.  The question is, "What is wrong with the practitioners of Kenpo?" That is easy.  There are too many keyboard warriors sitting on their butts trying to theorize all day as their physical ability deteriorates.  There are too many Kenpo thinkers and not enough Kenpo doers.   Yours, MM

 

Strong words from a man who's online almost as much as I am. Please consider Mike, that your assumptions carry zero water. Just because today's society requires us to be in front of a keyboard for long periods doesn't mean we don't bust our ass in our free time. A lot of the stuff you read here can be taken right to that mats. I for one work out more because of my sitting around theorizing. I have more mat fodder because of it. I have a brain that functions moderately well and I use it to my advantage when I can. Does that mean I'm fat and I can't fight. I don't know about you but if I made that assumption the next thing I'd expect is someone handing me my ass.

Thanks!

CT 

Kenpohigh:

Miller:

"What is wrong with Kenpo?" I don't think anything is wrong with Kenpo.  The question is, "What is wrong with the practitioners of Kenpo?" That is easy.  There are too many keyboard warriors sitting on their butts trying to theorize all day as their physical ability deteriorates.  There are too many Kenpo thinkers and not enough Kenpo doers.   Yours, MM

 

Strong words from a man who's online almost as much as I am. Please consider Mike, that your assumptions carry zero water. Just because today's society requires us to be in front of a keyboard for long periods doesn't mean we don't bust our ass in our free time. A lot of the stuff you read here can be taken right to that mats. I for one work out more because of my sitting around theorizing. I have more mat fodder because of it. I have a brain that functions moderately well and I use it to my advantage when I can. Does that mean I'm fat and I can't fight. I don't know about you but if I made that assumption the next thing I'd expect is someone handing me my ass.

Thanks!

CT 

I didn't point fingers.  I made a general statement to answer the question.  Why did you take offense??? You say that my assumptions carry zero water.  What about Mr. Parker's (Jr.)?  He and I had this discussion a little while back and he said the same exact thing that I posted.  Why don't you question him?  Anybody can theorize! Just my opinion!  Also, there are too many negative thinkers in a pool of paranoia in the Kenpo world! Good journey! MM

Now you can all give me the "poor instruction" lecture if you'd like but if it's true it's not just me and at least I'm showing up. Clyde uses the word contrast pretty much every time I talk to him. He uses kenpo as his benchmark for everything. Other arts, other kenpo etc. When I keep that in mind I find I am more likely to discover new function within my kenpo than I am to find I need another art. I spent some time with an escrima guy and he went from empty hand to sticks to knives. I came away thinking "That's what they meant in that kenpo technique!" Context can be everything. It's very easy to ignore that when you've got a nice neat technique to put under your belt. Ed Parker, in my opinion, had the context. He gave us ideas to work with but without the context I'm just dancing. That's why a) you need to get hit b)depending on how you learn, you need to play with other arts c) you should get on the mat with as many people as possible. I need these things because sometimes I just don't get it in the context of the lesson and I need a different light to hold it up against.

Thanks!

CT 

Miller:

Kenpohigh:

Miller:

"What is wrong with Kenpo?" I don't think anything is wrong with Kenpo.  The question is, "What is wrong with the practitioners of Kenpo?" That is easy.  There are too many keyboard warriors sitting on their butts trying to theorize all day as their physical ability deteriorates.  There are too many Kenpo thinkers and not enough Kenpo doers.   Yours, MM

 

Strong words from a man who's online almost as much as I am. Please consider Mike, that your assumptions carry zero water. Just because today's society requires us to be in front of a keyboard for long periods doesn't mean we don't bust our ass in our free time. A lot of the stuff you read here can be taken right to that mats. I for one work out more because of my sitting around theorizing. I have more mat fodder because of it. I have a brain that functions moderately well and I use it to my advantage when I can. Does that mean I'm fat and I can't fight. I don't know about you but if I made that assumption the next thing I'd expect is someone handing me my ass.

Thanks!

CT 

I didn't point fingers.  I made a general statement to answer the question.  Why did you take offense??? You say that my assumptions carry zero water.  What about Mr. Parker's (Jr.)?  He and I had this discussion a little while back and he said the same exact thing that I posted.  Why don't you question him?  Anybody can theorize! Just my opinion!  Also, there are too many negative thinkers in a pool of paranoia in the Kenpo world! Good journey! MM

 

Gee Mike. I didn't take any offense at all. Did you expect people to take offense at your post? My point was that not everyone who sits in front of a keyboard and enjoys talking extensively about kenpo is out of shape and "mat time challenged". If you go back and read your post you made no quarter for us heavy duty posters. You put us all in the "all keyboard, no mat" category. I do need to call Mr. Parker and thank him for a nice piece of artwork he did for me recently. I doubt this would come up though. A man who spends as much time at a computer or in front of an easel creating art would understand the concept of working harder to offset the sedentary life style. I agree with you that theory without a laboratory is just so much pissing in the wind. Theory applied on the mat is how we get to the next level.

Take care,

CT 

Kenpohigh:

Miller:

Kenpohigh:

Miller:

"What is wrong with Kenpo?" I don't think anything is wrong with Kenpo.  The question is, "What is wrong with the practitioners of Kenpo?" That is easy.  There are too many keyboard warriors sitting on their butts trying to theorize all day as their physical ability deteriorates.  There are too many Kenpo thinkers and not enough Kenpo doers.   Yours, MM

 

Strong words from a man who's online almost as much as I am. Please consider Mike, that your assumptions carry zero water. Just because today's society requires us to be in front of a keyboard for long periods doesn't mean we don't bust our ass in our free time. A lot of the stuff you read here can be taken right to that mats. I for one work out more because of my sitting around theorizing. I have more mat fodder because of it. I have a brain that functions moderately well and I use it to my advantage when I can. Does that mean I'm fat and I can't fight. I don't know about you but if I made that assumption the next thing I'd expect is someone handing me my ass.

Thanks!

CT 

I didn't point fingers.  I made a general statement to answer the question.  Why did you take offense??? You say that my assumptions carry zero water.  What about Mr. Parker's (Jr.)?  He and I had this discussion a little while back and he said the same exact thing that I posted.  Why don't you question him?  Anybody can theorize! Just my opinion!  Also, there are too many negative thinkers in a pool of paranoia in the Kenpo world! Good journey! MM

 

Gee Mike. I didn't take any offense at all. Did you expect people to take offense at your post? My point was that not everyone who sits in front of a keyboard and enjoys talking extensively about kenpo is out of shape and "mat time challenged". If you go back and read your post you made no quarter for us heavy duty posters. You put us all in the "all keyboard, no mat" category. I do need to call Mr. Parker and thank him for a nice piece of artwork he did for me recently. I doubt this would come up though. A man who spends as much time at a computer or in front of an easel creating art would understand the concept of working harder to offset the sedentary life style. I agree with you that theory without a laboratory is just so much pissing in the wind. Theory applied on the mat is how we get to the next level.

Take care,

CT 

Agreed!  Again, I wasn't pointing fingers.  I just feel that so many people theorize so much that it drowns their ability to make it work.  I am sure you bang it out more than you bang a keyboard.  I am glad you didn't take offense.  And, no, I wasn't attempting to offend anyone.   Take care,   MM

Geez guys like I do not read this shit.

Talking about me in the third party, all too funny, kinna.

Between the verbal copulation of ones love with ones own word, (am guilty of it myself) and all of the metal masturbation that goes on in here its a wonder anyone does kenpo at all? I just had to vent that.

Craig, thank you for mentioning about the artwork, I do appreciate that. To be honest this community as a whole is lacking a over all common courtesy to each other. When I did the book the Journey I voluntarily did 30 portraits of the seniors, spent hundreds of hours and for some lame reason 90% of the people I drew seemed to forget to thank me for my work. Like I owe anyone in kenpo anything. This community as a whole needs some serious growth in my opinion. It can start with a common courtesy to another human being let alone kenpoists. A simple thank you at the right time goes a long way or at least to artists it goes way more than that.

As far as Roberts original post wow, interesting angle to look at this from. Worth pondering that is for sure, thanks Robert.

From my perspective right and wrong is nothing more than a judgment placed upon a topic subjective to ones own opinion. Not exactly sure what is the point of this post, but I poped my head up out of my creative comma and found I was reading the strings on this post. Ok nuff ramblings back I go to my cave.

 PS by the way Jr. is not my last name!